Frequently asked questions
1. What type of oven would you recommend for a start-up operation?
For pie making, there are a variety of ovens on the market to choose from. Personally, we prefer the deck oven range because of their simplicity, affordability and they bake pies well with independently controlled top and bottom elements; Particularly the models with ceramic, or pizza baking models. Furthermore, they are available in both gas and electric, where the gas versions are considerably more pricey but more affordable to run depending on the cost of electricity in the respective country.
2. What type of mixer should I use?
Mixers too come in a variety of capacities and types. Importantly, for dough and pastry, one needs a Spiral Dough Mixer which is considerably more rugged by design than ordinary mixers. This is important to note for pastry production as many models of mixers are not designed for the rigours of dough mixing in that they provide a limited life.
3. Could I start out with a small mixer?
You can. Depending on the number of pies you want to produce and the amount of growth that one envisions for your business, your choice of a mixer will be dependent on those factors. Personally, due to the cost of having to upgrade your dough mixing capacity as well as the potential risk of a bottleneck that will occur if you invest in a mixer that has too small capacity. It is best to purchase nothing less than a 10 kg or 22 lb mixer. A 10 kg/22 lb mixer doing ten batches, can provide a capacity of around 1000 pies per day at 100g pastry per pie. The popular 5″ foil code 2001 pie container, for instance, uses exactly 100g of pastry per pie.
4. What is the ideal pressure setting for a compressor?
Minimum 6, 5 Bar – Ideal Pressure is a constant 7 -10 bar, with 10 bar being the maximum. It is better for the pressure to be higher; too low a pressure will result in the product sticking to the top die. Does work at 5 – 6,5 Bar pressure when producing mini/cocktail pies.
5. Should I only use a specific dough recipe with the machines?
Our machines work with all pastry types. The only prerequisite is that dough not be sticky.
That said, very sticky dough is usually not good-quality pastry dough. Gluten formation occurs in over moist dough resulting in poor quality and a tacky dough.
6. What is the ideal temperature of the dough to be used with your machines?
Dough temperature being between 10 – 21 degrees approximately.
A higher temperature will make the dough softer which increases the efficiency of the machine; However, the greater the temperature the more likely the chance of the butter or fats melting in your pastry, which isn’t good for pastry quality.
The ideal temperature for pastry dough assuming it has a low fat/butter melting point is, 15 degrees Celsius or 59 degrees Fahrenheit.
7. What are the advantages of the Pneumatic Blocking Machine?
The advantages are numerous;
- They work with all types of pastries.
- They are an excellent and the original cold forming process.
- They will reduce your production footprint tremendously.
- Their cycle times are a fast and efficient 3 second for the 01 machine and about 6 seconds for the 02 machine.
- Part of a modular system so adding to it and your production is simple and uncomplicated.
- They provide that simple and effective scale-ability for future safe expansion and growth.
- They simplify your HACCP and reduce its costs tremendously.
- They are a low capital outlay asset that recovers costs fast.
- And reduces raw material costs in layered pastries due to improved baked results compared to rolling.
- Its operation is simple and quick to teach, and maintenance is cleaning only.
- They are factory setup and thus Plug and Play.
8. Am I limited to only portioning a certain size of dough or pastry with your Portioner?
No, you aren’t limited. Now each roller would provide a range where portioned pieces’ width, thickness and density is always consistent
Previously, one would have to purchase a roller for every portion size.
We sought and found a new, better solution that simplifies further while also allowing for a wide range of the portion to be adjusted. Portioner updated now gives tremendous freedom to change portion weights.
9. What is the maximum output of a Deck Oven?
Quantities of 5” or (∅130 mm) pies that would fit on a Deck Oven tray being 23,62” (600 mm) x 15,75” (400 mm) in size, is about 12. Most Deck Ovens have a standard tray size of 600 x 400 mm. So if you have a four-tier triple tray Deck Oven, it’s a total of 144 pies per bake where your bake time is around 25 – 35 minutes. In an eight-hour day your bake would total 1 728 pies. This can be increased with a second and third oven, etc.
10. Why is a Deck Oven more favorable as a start-up option? And what are your thoughts about conveyor type ovens?
Deck oven’s disadvantages for some are, that they have a large footprint (Solved by some brands in being able to stack them easily), and that they take long to get to temperature. However, purchasing the deck oven with ceramic plates in its deck base is the way to go. Ceramics are usually in the pizza baking range of deck ovens; They heat up faster and provide a superior bake for pies. They have precision temperature due to the independently controlled top and bottom dual elements.
Conveyor ovens are suited toward biscuit, bread and pizza baking than for pies. Conveyor ovens aren’t used for pies. Rotary Rack Ovens would then be the better option. They are costly and fixed in position but have huge capacity. Personally, it would be easiest and most cost-effective to start up deck ovens; and as volume progresses to go with a rotary oven.
11. How do I know which size compressor I will need?
250 – 500 liter tank capacity; The larger the better as the air output and storage capacity is bigger. Importantly, it’s the air delivered/minute that is of the greater importance. The higher air output or cfm the better, particularly when running two or four Blocking Machines as one wants to keep the working air pressure of the machines as high as possible at all times without having to wait for air. The air output or cfm should not be less than 270 Liters/minute for a single blocking machine, and 450 – 600 liters/minute for two and four machines respectfully.
Quality models like Ingersoll Rand and Atlas Copco compressors, have outputs from a few hundred to over 1000 liters/minute. Air Compressors more info
15. Which brand of an oven would you recommend?
Personally, we prefer deck ovens due to their simplicity and bake quality. These are available in electric and gas and also in both convection type and non-convection. Gas on the coast tends to give a better bake than electrically operated, and a convection deck oven is best as it gives a faster and more even bake. Many deck oven brands are easily stackable so you can add to your oven capacity as you need affordably. They can be readily moved around being more mobile than most. Deck Ovens can provide a constant flow of bake production. If you have a double, triple or quadruple deck oven, you can remove baked pies from one deck, then load the next, etc. This allows for fresh hot pies all day consistently. Where other ovens are different, and also more expensive, quality deck ovens can be more cost efficient and cost effective.
Find them here; Ovens and Warmers
16. Will I need a Walk-In Fridge?
A walk-in fridge is good but not necessary for a start-up. You can always invest in that later unless your startup plan and budget require it.
The most cost-effective option are chest freezers or fridges. They are affordable, can be moved around at will, low in running costs.
17. What is the profit potential per pie?
The profits can be the nice part of a pie making business. Using our process your profits could be as much as 100% and even higher. A completed (200 g) meat(beef) pie produced by our system costs about R 3,25 – R 3,75 (2014) inclusive of labour and electricity and retails for between R 10,00 – R 14, 00… wholesale for a good-quality pie of this nature is between R 7,00 – R 8,00.
The market price for pies is South Africa rose to between R18, 00 and R20, 00 in 2016.
Based on customer feedback from around the globe, the profit percentage average or ratio of cost to margin is pretty much the same; Its value related, and similar to the coke index.
18. What range of equipment will one need in order to put out up to 1000 pies per day?
1 x Pneumatic Blocker, 1x Lidding Machine and a Dough Portioner
Capacity would be around 3000 – 5000 pies per day. One can add a second Blocking Machine at a later stage to double production. (Our low-volume solution wouldn’t suffice to do 1000 pies per day.)
Volumes naturally dependent on how many staff one has, and therefore, the following is true;
Two people = 500 – 800 pies per day
3 people = 800 – 1500 pies per day
4 people = 1500 – 2500 pies per day
5 people = 2500 – 5000 pies per day
19. What capacity deck oven will be needed for 1500 pies per day?
You’ll need a minimum of one, three tray four-tier deck oven, which should provide 1500 pies over five hours of daily bake time.
20. What oven/convection oven is best for reheating pies when sold?
A pie warmer is the best to keep pies hot, preferably one with a humidifier. Not an oven; Furthermore, what works well is microwaving a pie on defrost for just the right amount of time and not on high like many do.
21. How long can a pie stand once made until served?
If placed in a pie warmer that has a built in humidifier and is set correctly, the pie can stand over an 6 – 8-hour day without drying out.
22. Is it more economical to make pastry in-house or buy in bulk?
It’s always more economical to make one’s own pastry. Some pastry suppliers can charge a minimum of double to four times the cost. Although the pastry making part can be the most daunting of the pie making process; It, however, isn’t that difficult to master. You would have a little experimentation in the beginning. The simplest and least temperamental pastry to make is the Scotch Puff or rough puff pastry.
23. Do you have agencies in other countries?
We unfortunately don’t have agencies as yet. In order to keep our equipment prices as low as possible, we chose direct selling. To better accommodate re-sale discount we are rethinking our pricing and range.
24. What baking method would I use for baking unbaked, frozen pies?
The mixture must be cool/cold before you put into your foil container. Furthermore, we recommend that you increase your baking time by 10 – 15 minutes and reduce the oven temperature to a lesser temperature. So the frozen pies will bake for longer at a lower temperature than what you would bake an unfrozen pie.
26. Do you have any other standard pie shapes besides round?
Oval and square pie tins are available as standard and are manufactured in South Africa.
27. Could I use different size containers on the same Lidding Machine?
The 2041 and 2001 containers can be used in the identical Lidding Machine…These are the ONLY 2 pie containers in the range that can be used in the same Lidding Machine and are the most favourite pie containers in South Africa. The round 2001 is liked when selling to school canteens, and the round 2041 makes a wholesome 250gram pie popular as an “adult” meal pie.
28. What outlay would I be looking at for custom pie tins?
Custom pie tins to suit Flower Shape will require a minimum order of around 700 000 to a million containers, plus the design and tooling fee. It wouldn’t ordinarily be a viable option unless you can find a container manufacturer that would accommodate it more affordably.
The Flower Shape doesn’t require a pie tin to produce.
29. How could I identify different pie flavours without using the Embossing Tool?
You can do so by colour coding the foil containers, use our lidding machine’s tool branding options or multi pricker system to mark up to 10 flavours..
30. If I outfitted totally with your equipment, are there any cost savings / advantages contrary to buying items individually?
No. With exception that our pricing might have increased when time comes to purchase.
31. What is the minimum work-space, I would need to install the equipment for a Maximum Volume Solution and operate it in a safe and work friendly manner?
40 square meter’s minimum is and more ideal would be 40-60 square meters to include substantial freezer and refrigeration. A 10 000 pie factory can be as small as 100 meters square.
32. What is the minimum work-space I would need for a low-volume solution?
Our kitchen, believe it or not, is only 15 square meters…that’s from wall to wall. Purpose built to test the smallest possible space for a commercially viable, upscale-able business.
The 2013 Manual Blocker and Lidder video were shot in our little kitchen. All manufacture, baking and cooking are done in this space.
Our freezers, however, are not in that same space; 30² meters would be the minimum recommended smallest.
We easily managed 684 pies per day using two people. Four people would increase that production to a maximum of 2500 pies in that 30² meter space. We achieved this with our Medium Volume Solution.
Another two people, making six, would enable the production of 4000 – 5000 pies. Space would have to increase 60² meters.
33. As a single operator, what sort of production volume per day can be reasonably expected?
Assuming you set up a process efficient kitchen, with a Portioner, Spiral Dough Mixer 20kg capacity (The less people, you have in your process the bigger you want your mixer), 1 x Pneumatic Blocker and a Lidding Machine….and you cook your pie fillings in quantities suitable to roll over every two days (good refrigeration and storage process is required).
You could make around 250 – 350 pies per day on your own. I recommend having one extra person in your process ie. Total of 2 including yourself and 500 minimum/day will be easy to do without pressure on our system.
34. At what level of production would I expect to hit break even on investment in this equipment?
It will depend on what you pay for raw ingredients, particularly meat, as well as your country’s acceptable selling price. I will relate the analysis we did in South Africa.
Cost of equipment = R100 000,00 including oven and mixer
2016 Pie cost = R5,00
Selling price = R16, 00 – R20, 00; Current market price for meat pies in SA = between R18, 00 – R20, 00)
Your monthly gross profit = R55 000,00 at R16, 00 selling price, making 250 pies per day, five days per week.
This study was done on a five-day workweek and excludes weekends and included two staffs.
Visit our Pie Designs Costing Calculators page to use our calculators to determine your ROI (Return of Investment)
35. Do you have a recommended spare parts list for items that are likely to need replacing?
Yes, we do; We design and build our machines to be mechanically sound to endure heavy operation with unlimited life.
The only things that can cause damage where components would require replacing to both our Lidding Machines, and Blocking Machine die, is if they are submerged in water when cleaned, or sharp objects are used to scrape or dig in the tools when being cleaned.
Should one fail to drain moisture build-up in your compressor at least twice per month, and your airline is incorrectly installed, it could negatively affect the pneumatics long term where the auto drain on our machines becomes overwhelmed.
36. Your videos only show your equipment working with foil pans can the equipment work without foils, and what else would be required?
Our system works equally well with fold over and container type pies. The versatility of our system is that all our Lidding Machines can make fold over type pies, even if the dies/tooling are specifically for foil container pies. This is valuable versatility.
37. Which portioning ladle would I use for a standard-size pie?
The most common would be the 112ml ladle which will provide a fill gram weight of around 125 grams.
That said, you have to note that a “standard” pie is difficult to quantify. Simply because every country serves up, different portions based on the consumption need of the respective market. For instance, a “standard” pie in the USA is about 220 – 250 grams and more. And in South Africa that “standard” is 185 – 200grams.
Another difference is, that in the USA, for instance, sizeable 9″ and 9,5″ family pie is more of a standard than would be your one meal 200 gram pie. And in South Africa, your large diameters 228mm (9″) – 942mm (9,5″) pies are not as favoured as (yet) they are in the USA and Canada.
38. I checked out your Original Puff Pastry recipe on your web site, does this recipe and your equipment stop the need for rolling/folding the pastry and still give a good puff result?
Yes, the Scotch puff pastry does not have to be rolled at all; Additionally, any sweet or short type pastries don’t need to roll out.
However, the Scotch pastry is not only particularly easier to make.
39. A question I hope you can assist me with; Is it important to cool the meat filling before depositing in pie, how would you recommend cooling hot pie mixtures?
It is very important that your fill mixtures are cold or at room temperature when filling. What is commonly done is to cook the previous day and let cool naturally. Then use the same day, or refrigerated and used the following morning when pies are assembled.
Fans are a common way to cool down fillings. Importantly, it is never good to place hot fillings in the refrigerator for cooling as this will result in the filling drawing in excess water from the atmosphere.
40. Is the manual dough sheeter/roller required with the medium production solution? If not what is the process once you take the dough out of the mixer? What happens to the dough before being inserted in the Dough Portioner?
The advantage of the Pneumatic Blocking Machine is that no pastry sheeter is required.
41. How do you cater for North American customers with respect to differences in the pie foils?
We design and manufacture according to your requirements. All you need to do is mail us some undamaged sample foils or metal containers, and we will design accordingly.
Our process has few limitations. Therefore, catering to your requirements has the flexibility to meet your needs, it doesn’t matter where you are situated in the world.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask us. Contact us